Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

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Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:15 am

Greetings,


I'm currently working on a selfmade subcodex for the Cinneans. It will include a bunch of custom units and heroes, and I'm currently working on some rules and custom models. I will obviously never be able to use these in games, but it's fun to do Wink Anyways, my question was: how many points would these individual units cost if they were hypothetically added to the Imperial Guard codex...


First off: the three hero characters. They obviously each have specific strenghts and weaknesses, these are actually based on/inspired by the first/third person shooter gaming styles of me and two of my friends - we each have a vastly different style and I thought it would be fun to convert those styles into 40k. No, they do not represent us as a person :P When you give them a point cost please explain why you think that's what their cost should be, and feedback on them rule wise is highly encouraged! By the way: I intend them to be between 80-120 points, so if you feel they go over that, suggestions that would bring them to that level but retain their flavour = welcome


Albane, Jyrii: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 4, A 2, Ld 10, Sv 4+. Point cost: ???


Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character


Wargear: Hotshot lasgun, plasma pistol, Carapace armour, frag and krak grenades, Power sword, Melta bombs, Refractor field


Special rules: Combat mobility*, Storm assault, Ex-commando, Commander, Move through cover


Combat mobility: Albane gains a 2+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks originating from within 12 inches and 4++ from anything further away to represent his evasive maneuvers. In addition, he may move D6 inches after ANY shooting attack he makes, including overwatch. If this puts him out of charge range, the charge fails, provided the assaulting unit can't reach any other members of Albane's squad (if he joined one).


Storm assault: When firing at a target within 12 inches his Hotshot lasgun is counted as being a 2d6 assault weapon instead of Rapid Fire. In addition, every time he engages a new enemy unit for the first time in this manner the target(s) count their toughness and cover saves as being 1 point lower than they actually are. This only applies to his own shooting attack in the shooting phase.


Ex-Commando: As a former Stormtrooper captain, Albane may join a squad of Stormtroopers, and benefit from their Special Operations rule.




Commander: Albane may issue orders exactly as if he were a Company Commander.




No model for him yet. Fluffwise he's ex-Stormtrooper Company Commander, hence the 'Commander' rule. He's a combination of Stormtrooper, Primaris Psyker, Company Commander. He's supposed to be extremely mobile, but he'll fold to focussed fire and assault (he doesn't get the ++ when assaulted).



Angaran, Radek: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 4, W 2, I 3, A 3, Ld 9, SV 4+. Point cost: ???


Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character


Wargear: Heavy stubber, laspistol, Carapace armour, frag and krak grenades, Power first, melta bombs, Demolition charge, Refractor field.


Special rules: Support gunner, Better watch your step!, Relentless, Stubborn, Furious charge, Feel no Pain, Rampage


Support gunner: Angaran carries a large backpack full of ammunition and supplies for his fellow troopers (and himself) to use. With ammo count not being an issue, his squad can fire small arms in abundance. Angaran and the unit he's joined count their weapons as twin-linked for shooting attacks with any weapon up to and including Strenght 4 as well as any pistol.


Better watch your step!: Before the game begins, the controlling player may place 6 markers anywhere on the table, but not in the enemies' deployment zone. Two of these are booby traps, write down beforehand which ones are or mark their undersides. Whenever an enemy unit comes within 3 inches of a booby trap, it takes an automatic D6 strenght 8 AP 2 hits, provided Angaran is still alive to detonate the demo charges. Vehicles are hit on their rear armor but will only take a single hit. Radek also carries Snare Mines.










Harker-ish mixed with Kell. He's the burly sergeant meets cunning demo expert type. Higher toughness and FnP should keep him alive for a bit.



D: WS 3, BS 5, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 3, A 1, Ld 3, SV 5+. Point cost: ???


Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character


Wargear: Custom sniper rifle, two heavy revolvers (count as bolt pistols), close combat weapon, flak armor, frag grenades, snare mines, camo cloak, refractor field


Special rules: Master sniper, Special issue ammo, Stealth, Scout, Infiltrate, Night vision, Gunslinger


Master sniper: D's sniper shots count as precision shots on a 3+ rather than 6+ and wound on a +2. His rifle has a range of 48 inches. In addition, he may relocate after each sniper shot: roll a D6 to see how far he can move.


Special issue ammo: D can choose from two rounds when firing his sniper rifle. Pick an ammo type every time he fires his rifle:
Plasma core rounds: experimental .50cal rounds with a plasma chamber, these bullets are AP2.


Tungsten cored rounds: heavy duty .50cal with an armour piercing tip, these count as strenght 8 ap3 when fired at vehicles.










Essentially a weaker Vindicare assassin. Stealth USR + Camo cloak = +2 cover saves, and he has nice range on his weapon to keep him somewhat safe. Former scout veteran.


Last edited by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:17 am

Next up, the Heavy Sentinel. Speaks for itself I think.

Heavy sentinel: WS 3, BS 3, S 5 [Armour: F 12, S 11, R 10] I 3, A 1. Point cost: ???

Composition: vehicle squadron of 1-3 Heavy sentinels. The heavy sentinel is a heavy support choice on the FOC.

Unit type: Walker

Wargear: Two heavy bolters, twin-linked storm bolter, extra armor, searchlight

Upgrades: replace heavy bolters with heavy flamers: ??? points
replace heavy bolters with missile launchers: ??? points
replace heavy bolters with multi-melta's or lascannons: ??? points


May take smoke launchers: 5 points

EDIT: It has slow and purposeful


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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by BrookM on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:24 am

Albane, Jyrii: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 4, A 2, Ld 10, Sv 4+. Point cost: ???

Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character
Wargear: Hotshot lasgun, plasma pistol, Carapace armour, frag and krak grenades, Power sword, Melta bombs, Refractor field
Special rules: Combat mobility*, Storm assault, Ex-commando, Commander, Move through cover
Combat mobility: Albane gains a 2+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks originating from within 12 inches and 4++ from anything further away to represent his evasive maneuvers. In addition, he may move D6 inches after ANY shooting attack he makes, including overwatch. If this puts him out of charge range, the charge fails, provided the assaulting unit can't reach any other members of Albane's squad (if he joined one).
Storm assault: When firing at a target within 12 inches his Hotshot lasgun is counted as being a 2d6 assault weapon instead of Rapid Fire. In addition, every time he engages a new enemy unit for the first time in this manner the target(s) count their toughness and cover saves as being 1 point lower than they actually are. This only applies to his own shooting attack in the shooting phase.
Ex-Commando: As a former Stormtrooper captain, Albane may join a squad of Stormtroopers, and benefit from their Special Operations rule.
Commander: Albane may issue orders exactly as if he were a Company Commander.
No model for him yet. Fluffwise he's ex-Stormtrooper Company Commander, hence the 'Commander' rule. He's a combination of Stormtrooper, Primaris Psyker, Company Commander. He's supposed to be extremely mobile, but he'll fold to focussed fire and assault (he doesn't get the ++ when assaulted).


2++ / 4++ plus D6 movement after any shots fired at him paired with 2D6 shots (!!) that gives a hard -1 to both cover and toughness makes him horribly OP in my humble opinion. What is the fluff justification for such an overpowered weapon and the ability to run every time he gets shot at? Not to mention the hard 2++ against shooting attacks at close range? I can see that you want to toss in the best abilities from several unit types, but in this current format, the model is pretty overpowered and would most likely be in the same price range as Yarrick.


Angaran, Radek: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 4, W 2, I 3, A 3, Ld 9, SV 4+. Point cost: ???

Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character


Wargear: Heavy stubber, laspistol, Carapace armour, frag and krak grenades, Power first, melta bombs, Demolition charge, Refractor field.
Special rules: Support gunner, Better watch your step!, Relentless, Stubborn, Furious charge, Feel no Pain, Rampage
Support gunner: Angaran carries a large backpack full of ammunition and supplies for his fellow troopers (and himself) to use. With ammo count not being an issue, his squad can fire small arms in abundance. Angaran and the unit he's joined count their weapons as twin-linked for shooting attacks with any weapon up to and including Strenght 4 as well as any pistol.
Better watch your step!: Before the game begins, the controlling player may place 6 markers anywhere on the table, but not in the enemies' deployment zone. Two of these are booby traps, write down beforehand which ones are or mark their undersides. Whenever an enemy unit comes within 3 inches of a booby trap, it takes an automatic D6 strenght 8 AP 2 hits, provided Angaran is still alive to detonate the demo charges. Vehicles are hit on their rear armor but will only take a single hit. Radek also carries Snare Mines.


I'd put him at twice the cost of Harker myself, if not more, his support gunner ability is just screaming to be used in conjunction with a fifty strong blob-mob in combination with FRF, SRF! Also the booby traps are horribly powerful, I understand that it's a MEQ world out there, but these might be a bit too much.


D: WS 3, BS 5, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 3, A 1, Ld 3, SV 5+. Point cost: ???

Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character
Wargear: Custom sniper rifle, two heavy revolvers (count as bolt pistols), close combat weapon, flak armor, frag grenades, snare mines, camo cloak, refractor field
Special rules: Master sniper, Special issue ammo, Stealth, Scout, Infiltrate, Night vision, Gunslinger


Master sniper: D's sniper shots count as precision shots on a 3+ rather than 6+ and wound on a +2. His rifle has a range of 48 inches. In addition, he may relocate after each sniper shot: roll a D6 to see how far he can move.

Special issue ammo: D can choose from two rounds when firing his sniper rifle. Pick an ammo type every time he fires his rifle:
Plasma core rounds: experimental .50cal rounds with a plasma chamber, these bullets are AP2.

Tungsten cored rounds: heavy duty .50cal with an armour piercing tip, these count as strenght 8 ap3 when fired at vehicles.


Pistols are a bit silly when you've already got a bloke that's great at sniping and nothing else. I'd make the rounds usable only once per game, maybe give the plasma round Gets Hot! and tone down the Precision Shot to a more reasonable 5+ instead. As is, easily in the same price bracket as Illic Nightspear, if not more, because this bloke is nastier than him.

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:54 am

Thanks for the response Smile

First of all, I did NOT want to give any character the BEST of several other guys' abilities, I wanted to make a balanced mix, with a concept in mind. These concepts are that Albane is the close quarter specialist, Angaran is the utility/support guy and D is the long range guy.

As for Jyrii Albane, he can move D6 after he fires his OWN gun, not when the enemy fires at him. Somewhat like battle focus from the new Eldar. I let him do it as well when firing overwatch because he's only really effective in close range, and I think you'll agree he isn't that great in hand to hand. He doesn't bestow the ability on his squad, so it can only function in small vulnerable squads where he's in the front. The 2d6 attack kills 2 or 3 marines average, and he needs to get close first. Don't forget the hotshot lasgun is only strenght 3. He also sucks vs terminators and anything fired from 13 inch away or more. As for the fluff justification: it's not the weapon that's so horribly powerful (although I guess his weapon is overcharged which I forgot to mention), it's his ability to quickly target many dudes with quick precision bursts. Maybe it's better if I'd just let him fire his weapon twice (4 shots)? There's an apoc sheet that let's stormtroopers move, fire, move and fire, and that also gives -1 to cover (not to toughness though). Any idea's on how to retain his 'storm assault' flavour without making him OP in your eyes?

As for Angaran: the STR 8 AP 2 is based on the profile of a demo charge, had nothing to do with marines Wink also the opponent can easily see the markers, so easy to evade. They're area denial things, really. Maybe I should reduce the markers to 3 with 1 demo charge, that sound good? I'm also taking suggestions for support gunner, because I DO want him to have a useful ability to buff his group since combat wise, he's not that great for a character supposed to cost 100ish points.

D: well I'll keep this simple. Vindicare is 145 points, ALWAYS has precision shot, ALWAYS has +2 to wound and can ALWAYS fire STR 3 + 4D6!!!!! turbo rounds with AP1, he has 4++ , can take away characters' invulnerable saves, can fire AP 1 double-wound ammo etc. etc. The pistols are for coolness, no function really. I don't know how much Nightspear costs, didn't he have like 120 inch range or something? :P

Still think everything is overpowered? Smile

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:58 am

Also for Albane the -1 to toughness and cover are only the first time he fires on a squad.

Edit: some further clarification for my choices: most characters in the Guard codex are force multipliers, they benefit the army but they aren't great in a fight by themselves. I wanted some more combat-ish characters, and with toughness 3 and a max armour save of 4+ they simply die too easily. That is why I gave each of them some abilities to help them live a little longer: 4++ for Albane, T4 and FnP for Angaran, and +2 cover saves for D. I agree they are fairly strong characters, but I think their point cost is reasonable if I iron out some unforeseen balance issues. I'm curious how other people feel about this?

If others also think these characters are overpowered, I can reduce Ld to 9 for Albane, and 8 for the other two. I've given the 6-marker thing some thought and decided to give Angaran 3 markers instead, with only 1 demo charge. Also an option: make Albane an upgrade for a Stormtrooper squad, Angaran for a veteran squad, and D a solo-only character. How about that? And what about the Sentinel?

Opinions, people, I need opinions Very Happy

Edit 2: lol, I gave D a Ld of 3 it seems, was supposed to be 9 xD

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by 197thBataviran on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:27 am

Perhaps two simple things. 

First, it's ALWAYS better to overprice your units, rather than underprice them. If they are overpriced, they might be fun to play against as well for the enemy. While if they are underpriced, no one will want to play against them. (You can tune down the points later.)
I'd recommend you to follow a simple rule I learned somewhere else: "Take the points you deem reasonable and add half to it."
So a 100 point unit, would be 150 points. 
After all, what we think is reasonable and just normal, may be grossly overpowered compared to another codex. We often get warped by our own unit stats and things like that. Often you need to keep in mind that the points shoud be in line with the rest of your codex. That's why some units may seem cheaper in other codexes, but you need to pay for the synergy as well. Sure, it can be 20 points cheaper there, but there is a reason for it. 

The second thing is that you should maybe tune down some of the wargear. Do they really need all that fancy weapons and are you willing to add the points for it? Do they need power fists or meltabombs or referactor fields? 
(If you give people the option to take Meltabombs, you can lower the price by 5 points and put it in as an entry, allowing people to tweak their figures a bit. Some may want it, others don't.)

Two other things I came up was that maybe you shoud strip away what they don't really need. Marbo is great because he is cheap and he has the right tools for the job. Simplicity is the key here.
Does the Storm trooper need to issue two orders or can it also be one? Perhaps drop it and change it?
Try tuning him down to what you think is reasonable for 60 points and price him at 90. Then see how he works in games and if he needs some increase or a (minor) decrease. (Try to do it only after you played him in several games, one game can be either good or bad and doesn't give a good overall result.)

Overall, I'd be curious to see what you bring up next. :)Making your own units is a great way of getting more involved with your army and I like the fluff. Smile

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:41 am

Thanks for the response, the thing is that these three guys are the supreme commanders of the Cinnea militairy, which is why they all have fancy gear such as refractor fields, I actually already toned down a lot of their initial gear (Albane also had a missile launcher and tank hunter in his first iteration for example, I figured that'd be OTT which is why I gave him meltabombs instead). That, and the rule of cool. The Power Fist for example, was purely added because it looks great on the mini, holding his stubber with it Wink. What it boils down to is that I want all of them to at least be somewhat effective vs everything, and excelling in one area while still not being unkillable. After BrookM's comment I've been thinking a bit and decided to go down the following route: would I take this unit every time if it were available? Albane? I would NEVER take Albane tbh, because while his skills are good, he doesn't sync with the rest of the army. I would ALWAYS take Angaran in an infantry heavy army, so yeah he needs a nerf to his support gunner skill (and already concluded he needs less markers). The reason Angaran is auto include in foot guard is the aforementioned (also by you) synergy. D is questionable, he can be useful to kill a melta guy or a sergeant, but he'd struggle to make his points back (because unlike Nightspear, he can't ID anything). I actually consider D the most balanced of them all, though I suppose I could bring his to-wound roll back to a 3+ instead of 2+.

I'm working on more stuff, including NAVEL units Very Happy What did you think about the heavy sentinel btw?

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Staal on Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:41 am

Albane, Jyrii: WS 4, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 2, I 4, A 2, Ld 10, Sv 4+. Point cost: ???

Unit type: infantry (unique), independent character

Wargear: Hotshot lasgun, plasma pistol, Carapace armour, frag and krak grenades, Power sword, Melta bombs, Refractor field

Special rules: Combat mobility*, Storm assault, Ex-commando, Commander, Move through cover

Combat mobility: Albane gains a 2+ invulnerable save against any shooting attacks originating from within 12 inches and 4++ from anything further away to represent his evasive maneuvers. In addition, he may move D6 inches after ANY shooting attack he makes, including overwatch. If this puts him out of charge range, the charge fails, provided the assaulting unit can't reach any other members of Albane's squad (if he joined one).

Storm assault: When firing at a target within 12 inches his Hotshot lasgun is counted as being a 2d6 assault weapon instead of Rapid Fire. In addition, every time he engages a new enemy unit for the first time in this manner the target(s) count their toughness and cover saves as being 1 point lower than they actually are. This only applies to his own shooting attack in the shooting phase.

Ex-Commando: As a former Stormtrooper captain, Albane may join a squad of Stormtroopers, and benefit from their Special Operations rule.


Commander: Albane may issue orders exactly as if he were a Company Commander.


Looking at the stat line i would take the points for a company commander to start of with. (50 - 4x7 = 22)

22 pts

Gearwise:
Hotshot lasgun 5 pts
plasma pistol 10 pts
Carapace armour 10 pts
frag and krak grenades 0 pts
Power sword 10 pts
Melta bombs 5 pts 
Refractor field 10 pts

total: 50 pts

Special Rules:


Combat mobility 30 pts for a 2+ inv, extra move for a squad 15 pts
Storm assault 45 pts
Ex-commando 10 pts
Commander 0 pts if he is an HQ, otherwise 10 pts
Move through cover  5 pts

115 pts

Grand Total: 22 + 50 + 115 = 187

What i did for points value's was go through codex's and look for gear or abilities that are almost the same.

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Grey on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:52 am

I would increase the points just for the combination of skills and gear.
Move through cover, extra move, storm assault and combat mobility work very well together.

I think you should combine totals like Staal did and then increase points with +/- 20% to start with. Then start playing friendly games to test him and after each battle make a few notes and decide with your opponent if you should adjust the points. After enough battles againt different opponents you wil find a ballanced point cost.

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:18 am

Actually you are supposed to REDUCE the point cost by about 20%-50% due to gear redundency. Dungeons and Dragons has a section on creating your own stuff and it even warns for overcosting creatures in this manner! You can't just slap some wargear on a dude and add the cost up. If we create a Storm Trooper from scratch, for example, you get this:

Hotshot lasgun: 5 points
Hotshot laspistol: 2 points
Carapace armour: 10 points
Veteran statline: 7 points
Deepstrike ability: ??
Special operations: ??
Total cost = 24 points plus whatever deepstrike and spec ops cost. The codex ST is 16 points and is considered overpriced by most IG players (but assuming spec ops/DS costs 8 points, reduce cost by 50% is??? Smile...

That's not to say everyone's advice isn't helpful, because thanks to you guys I did find some other flaws in these characters' designs. Albane seems to be the biggest offender. Besides some oversights such as orders to himself to improve his 2d6 shots even further, I've figured that the biggest problem with Albane is this:
A: lack of focus
B: he's a gimmick
C: no IG player would ever take him, despite being able to kill a bunch of marines by himself

So what you would get is an expensive character that is too good at his specialty (for an IG dude) yet too easy to kill for his price (even with the invulnerable save).

I've decided to go back to the drawing board and come up with characters that would actually benefit the IG as an army while still retaining their flavour. If people are interested, I can post the new stats when I come up with them Smile

Now that we have the three intrepid heroes out of the way, I'm still curious what you guys think about the sentinel, and the conversion work Very Happy

Thanks again for the comments, I might be stubborn about point costing, but the advice is very helpful and much appreciated!

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by BrookM on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:44 am

If I may make one suggestion when creating characters: Adhere to the KISS principal, a.k.a. Keep It Simple Silly.

I wrote up a few special characters back in '09 for a contest using my Elysian list from Imperial Armour 4 as a basis and I kept things as simple as possible:

Company commander captain John Byron 
Byron climbed the ranks like a shooting star, starting out as a lowly drop trooper and climbing to the lofty rank of captain over the span of several campaigns. A gifted natural leader, John was at first unaware of his ability to lead but quickly grew into it upon officially receiving his sergeant rank. He served for some time with the Pathfinders, the Elysian elite that range ahead of the main force and ensure that the proper drop zones are prepared and ready. Upon returning to the company he made a steady advance to the ranks until he was offered to take command of the recently decimated V-Company, getting the chance to rebuild it from the ground up. Taking this opportunity with both hands he accepted, taking along his own platoon and air support. 

Captain Byron is a solid leader who thinks on his feet and thinks of his men, earning him many colourful nicknames along with the reputation of a caring leader. He would do anything for any of his men and all would do the same for him.
 

WS 4 
BS 4 
S 3 
T 3 
W 3 
I 4 
A 3 
Ld 9 
Sv 5+ 

Wargear: lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, close combat weapon, laspistol, frags and kraks 

SPECIAL RULES: 

Inspiring Leadership: Captain Byron is the very epitome of good and caring leadership to his men. Any V-Company squad within 12" of Byron's command squad may use his unmodified leadership for morale and leadership tests. 

Spec Ops As long as Byron is alive and on the board, either in a Valkyrie or on the ground the entire army benefits from the Airborne Assault rule found in the Imperial Guard codex.


All I did was give him access to perhaps quite a powerful army wide buff that benefits the army theme as a whole, the rest of it is already there in the list.


First squad sergeant Elise Konig 
The "soldier's soldier" is one way of describing Elise Konig. Seemingly fated to walk the path of solitude her life has been filled with tragedy and conflicts that left her with a deeply rooted bout of survivor guilt. However, with the guilt came a drive to excel at anything that was thrown at her, moulding Konig into a fierce combatant equally adapt at using a Accatran pattern lasgun in a fire fight or applying a blackened knife to the throat of an unsuspecting sentry. 

Sergeant Konig is fiercely protective of any man and woman in the company, not just her own squad. However, her own boys of first squad are nearest and dearest to her, like a mother looking after her own and she will do anything to see them come back safe and sound again.
 

WS 4 
BS 4 
S 3 
T 3 
W 3 
I 4 
A 3 
Ld 8 
Sv 5+ 

Wargear: lasgun with auxiliary grenade launcher, commando knife (poison weapon 4+), laspistol, frags and kraks 

SPECIAL RULES 

"I love my boys": Elise loves her boys and her squad is fiercely loyal to her, going through hell and back if she asked them to. As long as Konig is alive the squad count as being Stubborn. 

Knife Fighters: First squad has a way of dealing with sentries quickly and quietly. Any sentries taken out by first squad in an assault will only raise the alarm on the roll of a "6". 

Wave Zero: First squad has a large proportion of pathfinders and recon in its ranks, enabling the entire squad to move ahead of the main force, preparing the drop zone for general operations, supplies and reinforcements. To represent this first squad may infiltrate if not using a Valkyrie transport.


Here we have a simple squad upgrade that tailors the squad strongly towards the tackling of sentries (different edition, different scenarios back then).

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by 197thBataviran on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:06 am

Storm troopers are decently priced if you know how and when to use them. People look at veterans, see the same statlines, that the vets get more bodies and an extra weapon and are cheaper, thus say that the veterans are better, while the stormtroopers can reliably deepstrike and engage the enemy immediately. In certain places that's better than cruising around in a Chimera.

There are many guard units that can be compared to others, but you should look at what they are designed to do and see that we have one of the best codexes out there. There are not really many units that are useless or broken. There is a whole lot more to the Guard than what people say on the internet about it. Smile

Part of that is because you need to pay point for synergy. Some get an increase to prevent abuse. Some get a decrease to promote them. What other games or things say about it, doesn't matter. What matters is what your opponents say about it, they are the ones you have to play against. Smile

For instance your sergeant can fire 2d6 overwatch shots at an unit that wishes to assault your commander and he can still get out of charge range. You will always move him away from the squad, which means people will have to add a certain amount to their charge distance. Since they are already fickle, it doesn't feel like much of a disadvantage, but it rather forces people to keep shooting at him, where he already has a 2++/4++ save.

The support gunner is independant and can really be abused by blob squads. Fit him in a group of conscripts and you can start issuing them first rank fire, second rank fire. He has defensive grenades as well as a powerfist, as well as several other rules that make him hard to kill. He is T4, which seems rather space marine like. He has a referactor field as well as feel no pain and carapace armour. Does he really need all of them? 
Guards were made to die after all. Leave the heroic stuff to the space marines. Wink

The sniper rifle seems rather strong with a 2+ to hit and a 2+ to wound and no armour save. 

As my last advice: Make your units overpriced. You may find it overpriced, but that is irrelevant. The opponent has to find it overpriced as well. Then you know it is really overpriced. The thing is that homemade characters are a fickle subject. Many people try it and few are good. 
If you field a special character once and your opponent has the slightest idea he is overpowered, he will talk about it to the others and they will immediately form an opinion and don't want to play a game against him. No matter what you do then, most will still refuse to play against him.

While if you make him overpriced, then people will consider him a bit of a point sink, but it makes you happy to play them, so you can do it. After a few games, maybe then you can consider a minor price drop, but you have to be wary, because as soon as someone thinks they are overpowered, you won't be able to play them again.

The most important thing to remember is to have fun. Will your opponents have fun playing against those characters? Will they like it to play another game against that character? Do you like it to play against an overpowered unit? No, of course you don't. Do you think the opponent likes it if you field overpowered units? No, he doesn't. Special characters are fun, but try to keep it fun for both sides. Your opponent likes it, because it is not some overpowered monster and you can field your unique character.

But then again, as long as both sides have fun playing, then it doesn't really matter what we think.

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Re: Please help me with point cost of some custom units :)

Post by Cinnea 14th on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:25 pm

@BrookM: thanks for the examples, my characters are the special snowflakes of the Cinnean Guard regiments, so I probably went overboard with the details. I suppose fluff abilities of characters need to be watered down on the tabletop to make them work properly, I think you'll at least partly approve of what I've done with their next iteration Smile

@Bataviran: thanks for the analysis, most of it was already known to me (I know how my own codex works, dammit! :P), but it did kinda serve as a wake-up call. I appreciate you thinking along with me Smile Some things I just HAVE to say though: I never said *I* think Stormtroopers are too expensive, just that a lot of people feel that way. I said it to empathize my point on stacking gear cost. Also, I was aware of Albane's ability to stay out of charge range and his 2d6 overwatch (which would still only amount to 1 or so kills), they were the entire point ^^ Having said that, my characters were badly outperforming marines, they are only guardsmen... with that in mind I redesigned Albane and Angaran to be not so killy and more of a force multiplier to other units, and I toned down D as well. All in all, they should now mesh with the codex a lot better, as well as being cheaper (so people would actually take some).

So in my next post the redesigned trinity, I took a lot of advice I got here to heart, feel free to comment on them and maybe give a point cost to them (they should be significantly cheaper, I think). To better flesh them out, I've also given them some fluff to explain them better.

Edit: updates pending

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